Another idea

Wah Wah Wah
Our client side JVM is so bad Microsoft had to spend their time and money creating a new one.
Spend some of the money being wasted for lawyers on product development and make the darn JVM so good that Microsoft will have to use it, because our customers (who are also their customers) will demand it.

Let

Sun doesn't want to force MS to include its JVM. MS has violated the license of Java for its VM and therefore has broken the law and must be punished and Sun must be compensated. The inclusion of Sun's JVM is meant to compensate Sun and help MS reduce the enourmous payout it will have to pay when the final judgement comes down. The reason that this is being discussed now is that it is in no doubt that MS is guilty, but what the punishment should be.

To Arron Bates, who thinks Java is slow. I have been programming Java applications for over four years. If you know what you are doing, you can write quick Java applications with no problem. If your Java program is slow it is YOUR fault as a programmer, not Java's fault.

The injunction to force MS to include Java with its OS is certainly necessary to level the playing field. You can be sure MS will be loading .Net stuff with its OS. MS's Java is non-standard and it is unfair to both the end-user as well as Sun and all other Java developers to expect the end-user to have to download a proper version of Java before they can use the technology. MS used this technique to win the browser war. Now it is hoping to win the server war by reducing the full usefulness of Java on the client.

I'm an avid Java supporter and I'm not seeing how this lawsuit makes any sense. Sun is asking that Microsoft be forced to ship a competitive technology (Java) with their operating system. That's akin to mandating that Sun ship .Net support with Solaris to make it fair for Microsoft to compete in the Unix world. Or another example is making Microsoft ship UltraEdit with their OS because I don't like Notepad.

I don't see how forcing a company to ship software that is a direct competitor (from a technology standpoint) is justifiable. If a user wants to use Java, download the JRE and/or the SDK (or whatever they call it with this release). What's next, someone forcing Microsoft to ship with a Fortran environment because the mathematicians are feeling left out?

It is very interesting to see all the brainwashed Microsoft cult followers and their response to this thread. I left the Microsoft pimp stable years ago and haven't looked back since. I got tired of developing for an inferior product.

Java is the dominating force in the Web development market. It will take a lot of improvement (or bribery) for Microsoft to even get close. To claim otherwise is to have a very large disconnect with reality.

The whole issue here is that Microsoft hasn't been in the real competitive world for quite some time. They thought they could violate a contract obligation, and they got their hand slapped. Not hard enough, but the inclusion of the java desktop is one of those consequences. The only anti-freedom issue here is what Microsoft wants to take away from the computer industry. God help us if they have their way.

I don't know about you, but if I'm going to get screwed, I like it on my own terms.

This courstr case is a mockery of freedom and the free market. Sun has lost, overwhelmingly in the market, just check the stock price and market share figures, yet seeks redress in the courts. What a bunch of losers. They are doomed.

All you people are just bitter at Microsoft's success. It is ridiculous to even attempt to claim that Sun's site is easier to use than Microsoft's and even more ridiculous to claim that Sun's development tools are easier to use than Microsoft's. Any app you develop using Sun tools, I can develop with MS tools in 40% of the time and end up with a more robust and much faster application. Java is slow - it always will be until it dies. Every performance issue that arises in my company is in an application utilizing Java - I never, ever get any requests to assist in optimizing MS applications. My initial response is always get rid of Java - it is a dog.

To sue a company to force it to include its competitor's product in its own is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard of . . . "I can't compete because my product is a piece of junk; therefore, you have to include my junk in your product that actually works."

Quit whining and develop something worthwhile and the market will demand its inclusion!

There is a little company called niku.com that produces business-tracking software.
* As part of niku software line is an applet for data input.
* The applet only runs in IE with the M$ Java VM. [The niku applet will not run under the Sun VM]
* Because of this little nuance with niku, BellSouth corporate standard is IE running M$ vm.

How does this impact Applet and Application development on the desktop?
Immeasurably.

Should M$ pay the price for the non-standard Java VM and put Sun VM everywhere?
Yes. M$ backdoor approach to ruling IT hurts everyone.

BTW, I had to use VB today. What an odious platform. I installed the product and it installed the help files, but in order to access them, I needed to install MSDN client (not included). I struggled to use it from memory (it's been 6 years), but eventually needed those darn help files.

Every time I have to go to the Microsoft website, I'm reminded why I hate Microsoft. They do a horrible job of allowing me to search their massive "knowledge base", which strikes me as verbose and disorganized. In contrast, I can almost always find what I need regarding whichever Java API I'm using.

As Tiffany stated so rightly, "the real battle is between MS and the consumer", who MS treats rather shabbily.

As a Sun stock owner and Java Tester, I sure wish 'Scooter' would spend Sun's time, energy, money on new product development and not on trying to beat Microsoft in the courts...The last time I looked, Sun's stock price was below $5 -- down 95% from its all time high...

Microsoft seems to be arguing, "Sure, I may have raped you 9 months ago, but you didn't die after all, did you? What's the harm? Lie back and enjoy it next time".

If this was brought about, then things would change on the desktop, and Sun would start paying more attention to the desktop.

Java's desktop performance is more than adequate for most applications.

I loved it when a couple of years back Java was its own platform on Tucows. Awesome. Methinks some money went Tucows way to remove it.

With Java mandated on the windows desktop, things would shift...

There is one thing thta anyone outside U.S. can see.

It

The real battle is between Microsoft and the consumer, who is getting defective products shoved down her throat. Who is suing Microsoft about this?